How Jamie From PDN Hub Helps Companies Get Better Value From Their Purchasing (Customer Story)

Nick Kozmin and Jamie Levy


Speaker 1 (00:02):
All right guys, we have Mr. Jamie evy here from PDN Jamie, how's it going today?

Speaker 2 (00:11):
That's good. Good morning. Good afternoon. I'm not sure why you put a next, like good morning for me.

Speaker 1 (00:19):
So Jamie's been a customer of ours, a For a little bit. And he is servicing his target marketer. His niche is professional buyers, CF CEOs, or CFOs of small, medium size enterprises, 10 million to a hundred million. And the problem that he's solving is how do these companies get better values for their purchase, for their purchasing and their first saved money and increased profits. So, Jamie, it's always better to hear from the horse's mouth. Who are you helping? What problem do you solve? Why are you guys so enthusiastic about the solution?

Speaker 2 (00:57):
So we're, we're helping we're helping people who buy you spend money and pretty much everyone spends money wherever you are, everyone. And everyone loves to spend money. Okay. Problem. Is that not everyone spends well, some people are very good at it naturally say, you know, go down to the market, haggling over bags and those kinds of things. Some people naturally gifted on it. Some people aren't and those people need help. And that could be, you know, it could be you going to buy a car, which is a massive purchase. You know, when you've got to sign that 20 page lease agreement that we all, haven't got a clue, what we're signing yet, we sign it to multi-billion dollar deals. It doesn't matter. The process is the same. It's just trying to help those people who don't naturally get help because the large corporates can always pay for the experience and the help, whereas the smaller businesses can't fault. So it's trying to bring that training and experience to those people.

Speaker 1 (01:58):
Got it. So walk me through a story like of a customer that you've helped, like what comes to mind.

Speaker 2 (02:05):
So we're right in the beginning, but in terms of in terms of customers that I've helped and people that I've helped in the past, you know, I've worked with lots of different companies in terms of training them and developing them and moving them forward, say, you know, I've had lots of training programs, lots of materials that we've developed for them and, and, and run through. But I mean, it's kind of, if I give you a simple, like a very simple story of something now I was working with a friend, this is a friend that I'll use just to try and give you an everyday example of where people need help. And he was out buying a car and spending a large amount on the car. And he started talking to me about, you know, buy a car and I've never really bought one before.

Speaker 2 (02:53):
It's always been something I've got through work. And and I said, okay, fine, not a problem. You know, what are you looking for? So we kind of went, I don't know, I'm really, you know, I need a car and he wasn't really bothered. So I said, okay, does it need four wheels or three wheels? I mean, he said four wheels. So I said, okay, well, there we go. We're starting to find, say the starting places, what you need is and we started to look at things, started to say, well, okay, does it need four wheels? Does it need an engine? Does it need a big engine? You know, does your wife want a green car or a red car or a blue car? What does it need color, right. That, so all of these are drilling down into what is specific, need it.

Speaker 2 (03:31):
And then we start going into, you know, when's the right time to buy a car. Some people know yep. But the end of the quarter, perfect salesmen want to hit the target. So that time that's on market information that you start to understand. So what's going on the market, you know, we've just come out of COVID and the recession, and, you know, probably four months ago was the best time to buy a car right now, not necessarily, but four months ago was the best time to buy a car. So, you know, you, you kind of, you, you, you start those discussions at that point, and then you build up a plan of what you need, where you need to go. So that, and that's just, and we ended up going through and we bought a car and we negotiated the deal and it was fine.

Speaker 2 (04:12):
And it's just a case of what I'm trying. What I'm trying to say to people is everyone needs to do this. It doesn't matter what you're doing. Small business, big business. If you small business, you know, when the CEO comes in and says, Hey, I need to buy 20 vending machines for the site we've got, and you've got, you know, it could be an assistant that needs to buy them. She's no idea how to buy 20 vending machines. So what are the things that need to watch out for, what are the things you need to be careful for? And again, I've done that before we've worked and helped people on those kind of smaller deals where, you know, people want our help, but because they don't know what to do,

Speaker 1 (04:50):
Is there, would there be like a minimum purchasing amount that, where it starts to make sense, like a hundred grand, 50 grand where you, where it starts to make sense for you guys?

Speaker 2 (05:01):
Yeah. I mean, the, the, the minimum purchase, you wouldn't want to probably go less than about a hundred grand, 150 grand, 200 grand. But you know, if somebody is buying, you know, you can buy the car for us in terms of what we're setting up, what based it can be anything. Absolutely. Anything. It doesn't matter what you want. You just, what you would do is the bigger, the purchase, the more detailed you would need to go through. Right.

Speaker 1 (05:27):
Got it. So you've been helping, you've been helping people do this for how many years? Like 20 years.

Speaker 2 (05:32):
Well, I've been doing so I, my background is human and supply chain. I've been doing it for 25 years. I've been a global CPO of UN corporates. I've worked for small companies. I've sat on the sat in the UK and the treasury. I've sat, I've negotiated multi-billion dollar deals. Multi-Billion pound deals all over the world and trained this in us, South America Europe some parts of Asia and Australia as well. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (06:02):
Got it. So now you have a program, an app that's helping folks go through the process that you've learned through that 20 year experience with 25 years experience.

Speaker 2 (06:11):
Yeah. So there's, there's three parts to what would be what we have, which is the first part is kind of the materials that people need. So there's kind of like, you know, going through being able to tick the box and say, right, I've looked at that. I don't want to go into too much detail, but I've looked at that and it's being able to have those memory joggers in the materials, but it'll do that. The second part of what we call a mastermind. So that's kind of, you know, if I want to go into real detail on some subjects, then we run mastermind sessions for that. So if I wanted to learn negotiation we might also bring in certain experts that we see to those sessions. If we have enough people at one, you know, experts on mastery, on negotiation, that we might go and get somebody who is, you know, an absolute negotiator, you know, we've talked about bringing in specific negotiators to do that.

Speaker 2 (07:03):
I'd personally learned from a couple of guys who were hostage, negotiators, completely different ball game. When you do that versus me negotiating for, you know I could negotiate in a millionaire team that will get booked somebody's life is a little bit different. And then, you know, the third party to it is what we're calling a mentor exchange. So the idea is to bring those retired people back because the skills they have is immense. And the problem is, is that we lose that skill. We lose that talent. And especially through COVID these people who were on the verge of retirement, they're going to have a big problem in terms of getting jobs again. So we want to give them something that can do a few hours here, a few hours there, and connect with people who want those skills and what we're calling a mentor exchange. Yep. Those are the three key prongs to what we're building.

Speaker 1 (07:55):
Got it. That makes sense. And yeah, it's such a new project is just getting off the ground. Yep. Okay, cool. So let's talk about some, just like key points that we can share. Like we want to provide as much value as we can to the to the listeners here. So yeah, the, we have negotiation is more than price gouging buying is actually some yeah. Yeah. I'll stop on that one. That one. All right. So does it, does it typically

Speaker 2 (08:26):
That was had many years ago and in procurement, it's called Mojica. And we, we, you know, a lot of people who are listening, you ever done procurement will know what buy Vika stands for. I probably can't repeat it on here, but you know, it generally, when you think of procurement people, most people think of God, it's just going to be another price gouge. And that's all it is. Price is one part of the whole component. There's a lot more that we need to consider if you're a car, you know, and just give you an example, buying a car, you know, you, you need to consider the fact that your car might break down every 10 minutes. So I might buy, I might buy the cheapest car in the world, but if it breaks down every 10 minutes, how much is that going to cost me?

Speaker 2 (09:10):
Right. It's a very, it's a difficult game when you're looking at these things and that's why price isn't negotiation is just prices a lot more into it. There's a lot more, you've got to consider in procurement, what are some of the dimensions that are considered? So there's, there's generally falling if it's specifically a service. So you look at things, the order would be, you look at assurance and supply. Am I going to get the product? Because that's probably quite key, you know, I could pay the favor, pay the cheapest price, but do I can't get the product is going to be a complete waste of time. Then quality, what quality do I actually want? Do I want a rolls Royce? Or do I want a a Skoda? Or do I want a, you know, do I want a Chevy? What do I want? Which level of quality do I want?

Speaker 2 (10:04):
Cost is one of them know what is the cost that you want? You, you actually want to have innovation, you know, do I want to buy an annuity? That's going to have innovation. That's going to keep giving me the updates or a Tesla. That's going to keep giving me those updates every 10 minutes. I'm not going to pay 3000 for the updates. So it's going to happen. So there's innovation regulation, you know what, the legal constraints around this, whatever got to watch out for, if I was buying security services to heavily regulated, right? It's a heavily regulated industry and need to know what those regulations are. If you can't deliver the regulations, then forget it. And those are the kind of, those are kind of the key ones. Those are that's really useful. That's really useful for sure. So that's what, okay, cool.

Speaker 2 (10:52):
So it was one of the first things I would do in anything you buy service services for area book, you know, one of the first things that you would always do is understand what's your fundamental need sit down. And they spent millions developing the space pan and the astronaut was in, in the space station and get really annoyed because it wouldn't work. And eventually turned around. He was just shouting saying, it's not working. He shouted to one of the other Russian astronauts that I just want something though, right. Upside down. And the man threw him a pencil. Yeah. They hadn't fundamentally understood what are the needs once, you know your needs. It's very easy to do the rest, but they didn't need to spend millions and millions on developing an upside down pen. Pencil would have done the job. Yep. So that's kind of like basic, you need to be in terms of trying to get, get the needs right.

Speaker 2 (11:57):
When you're doing these things. Got it. Okay, cool. That was no, that's really useful. So buying is actually selling to, maybe we expand on that point. Yes. What does that mean if I'm buying something? So when you speak to, if you speak to buyers who are in a big corporate world, they spend most of their time in the wrong areas. What they do is they spend most of the time actually trying to convince people internally and selling to them what they actually need, because they're requiring their needs. Aren't actually what they think they are. So you, you, you tend to find somebody who will say, well, I actually need this. And then when you do define that, and the way we do that is, I don't know if you've ever done the five why's with babies, with children. So the children says why. And then they say why, and they say why.

Speaker 2 (12:48):
And they say, why, if you keep going down that route, you find the fundamental lead, you find out what they really need. And when you get to that point of what they really need, you can then start to convince them that what you're actually selling to them is actually the right thing. So you're constantly selling, you're constantly saying, Hey, do you need this? An example of something I did many moons ago, there was a drug company I was working for. They had a product and that designed it was beautiful. It looks amazing, but it was a six color product. What they didn't understand was which I had to explain to them and sell was that if they took one color of the product would cost half the amount. It didn't understand that the printing process had five days, five stations, because it had five stations.

Speaker 2 (13:36):
As soon as you put a six color on, you had to redo the whole thing. Again, it had to go through the whole process again. So they suddenly went, okay, so we're going to half the price of the product. If I take one color out. Yes. Okay. We'll take the one, Colorado. Got it. People don't get that. And that's, again, parts of the selling I've got to sell to you so that you understand, I've got to make sure you understand what I'm trying to do. Got it. Okay. Cool. And this is from the perspective of the procurement person. Yes. So I'm the person, who's the buyer. If I'm in a corporate world and I'm the expert, you know, I'm the one who spent, you know, I spend every day, we say, when you actually doing this, you should spend 60% of your time with your suppliers.

Speaker 2 (14:21):
You should spend 40% of your time internally. You actually find it's the other way round a lot of the time in terms of, because you spend a lot of your time trying to sell what you know is the right solution. But actually because people don't really understand, and you're trying to explain it to them, say, you know, you become an expert generally in a corporate environment, you become an expert in one area. So, you know, I've spent 20, 25 years wandering from corporate to corporate. I think our last count I've been in about 17 corporates, which is more than most people will ever do in their entire lives. Most people kind of do three companies in their entire lives. I've done that 17 already. And that's not including a few others that would be very short, small ones. And, you know, you, you become the expert in that area. So if I'm the expert buyer, for example, in property services, I become the expert in property. And you know, you're dealing with an expert in property, but I'm a commercial person. That's what I am. I'm just a commercial beast. That's what you want me to do. That's what you want me to be. I need to understand everything around the commercials. So that's what I do. And that's, that's what it is. So that's why it runs that way. Got it.

Speaker 1 (15:38):
And so with all the fixes experience that is that the thesis upon which the built the business was built.

Speaker 2 (15:47):
Yeah, it's both. So it's built upon the fact that I have that experience and also that I want to bring that to the masses. I want to bring it to help people. You know, we w we want to help people in, in, in specific areas when they want help. You know, I think certain elements that are personally good for me to give back. I mean, we've discussed myself and the co-founder have discussed that what we're going to be doing is where we're going to be giving a certain percentage of what we earn back to charity. And it will, but it won't be as writing a check, it will be, you're actually physically doing something or buying something, showing our skills and doing that because that, it's important for us to give back. It's important for us to, you know, help people that need help.

Speaker 2 (16:33):
But it will say trying to bring this to the masses is obviously the way we do that. I think a lot of people in the market, what I've seen historically, is the materials that are yours, any other individuals need to run. And that's the one part, which is the materials and the training. That's something that is very difficult to come by. You know, every different, every company has their own version of that version of the truth. So actually what we're saying is here's one, that's it, you sign up, you pay a monthly subscription and that's it. And we have a wizard in the middle. So when updates come through, or when there are changes, we will update all of that for you. So you just get access to all the materials and then tools and templates, training, how you look, how you learn all of that live. So you can just run through that whenever you want, and you can download and use the tools and templates whenever you want.

Speaker 1 (17:29):
Got it. And so the best type of customer who can, who can benefit the most cause typically when you're starting out, you want to go with one in one direction and, and service a customer where you have a domain, you understand that you have domain expertise, it's the high price high high value. So what, who's the best customer that can benefit from this right now?

Speaker 2 (17:53):
So there's two types, there's two types of customers. There's two, well, obviously there's three strands in time in terms of the business. Yep. So with those three strands, they'd probably be different types of customers. So our masterminds are people who really want to get real detail and understanding from experience practitioners. So if you're somebody that says AI, you know, I want to get the detailed understanding of how to do property. What we'll do is we'll do that breadth of experience in understanding how the process is and potentially bring in some of those real detailed experts. You know, if we could get a, you know, our, my ideal would be on negotiation would be have somebody like Chris boss. So again is like FBI lead, negotiator, trains all over the world. You know, when somebody says to me, okay, I want to do negotiation. That's what I want to do. You know, and we do a session on negotiation. So we'll give you the general, where does negotiation fit into the process? Then we'd bring in the absolute expert on that. I can teach it, I can teach fundamentals of negotiation, but I'm certainly not going to profess to be a Chris Voss in the world. You know, I'm going to profess to be a person that knows all of that process and be able to help you through that process of buying anything,

Speaker 1 (19:12):
As far as the cost, the customer who would be like a type of customer, like what industry, what size, who would be the, who would be the person? Yeah.

Speaker 2 (19:22):
Type of type of customer. We, so we're aiming for, yeah. We think a small to medium sized business. So the businesses over say 20 million in terms of revenue, but probably under about a hundred, hundred and 50 million because they tend to have permanent procurement people who on payroll. So it's somewhere between 20 and a hundred, hundred and 50 million in terms of size of business. We, we were targeting the legal sector at the moment and we're going to have the legal businesses, but an example, you know, I've just picked up, I'm having a conversation this week with the Scottish government cause they want to talk to me about the international division that I have. So that's on, that's just come out where it's a customer, but you know, that's, our target would be those businesses, anything bigger than that, they'll have a permanent procurement guy smaller than that. They can't afford to. Yeah. That's where our training will really help those people and really help them move up the scale very quickly. Got it. Got it. Does that help?

Speaker 1 (20:26):
They are. No, that's it. No, that's great. So that, that makes it very clear. Let's go through another point by engaging with suppliers in a collaborative problem, solving posture, everybody can win. So what does that mean?

Speaker 2 (20:37):
Yeah. I mean, you know, we, we talk about the win-win scenario being the best way to do these things. So you do get, and look, there are times when you've got to be aggressive with supplies, that's just the reality of the world. You know, in history, I've worked with companies where they are going bankrupt. So when a company is going bankrupt, they say, you've never worked in procurement until you've worked with a company that's going bankrupt because you have to do things you'll never do. Again. I always tell the story of negotiating with a company who was a taxi cab company in slouch in the UK. And we'd overpaid them six K and the company was going bankrupt. And this was a corporate we'd overpaid them six grand. And I had to go and ask them for the money back then with that badly in the red.

Speaker 2 (21:28):
So, you know, that was one time where you have to be aggressive and that's just the way it is. But there are the times where you work with. So what you have to understand is that my company won't work unless I get those products or those services in. Yeah. But it's, it's a two way game. The suppliers need our money. They need the orders, we need that product. So their services. So the best way to do it as collaborative is to work with them, to try and deliver. Whereas you work, you know, you fight them constantly all the time. You won't get the extra mile. And you know, the, these example of that, you know, we've all done. It, we've all had the, you know, the guy who's the contractor at home that comes to the house and says, I'll do your flooring for you.

Speaker 2 (22:11):
And then we go and negotiate the price down and down and down and down and down until there's no margin left. Well, the problem being is that what's going to happen. They're going to have to up sell you. You know, it's coming whenever it comes, you know, it's coming. So the up sell comes because you've hit them too hard. There's no room for them to maneuver. And that, that becomes, so it's not, you've, you've started a relationship in a win lose, and now it's going to be a win lose, but it's probably going to go the other way now because they're going to get you down the road, right. So win-wins generally the only way for it to work. So let's in that contractor example, what's the better way to do it. Well, you negotiate, negotiate the deal. You actually understand what the margin is.

Speaker 2 (22:54):
If you know what Mo money they're making, you know, then it's easy to say, well, Hey, you're making money on this. You know that. And I know that and you can see what's really going on. So if you go up the corporate scale more, the larger contracts wig, absolutely not 100% what the margins are that they're making. And how'd, you know, how'd, you know that because we compare it to same as you'll do at home, we'll get seven or eight quotes back. We'll tender. It, we'll negotiate. We'll find all the criteria we will measure, monitor against the needs that we've got. So would be fine, your needs and Rankin school. That is. And then because we do that, we'll actually be able to say this supplier is the best one that meets our needs to that. And that's kind of the best way to do it. And, and it's a win-win, you know, but what I, what I'm saying is we won't, you know, I think there's people who are out there who always wants to get the last penny, always get the last dollar and it's, well-known people do that. But if there's no margin, you guarantee the cost of coming back. Yep. The costs coming back, Oh, they're going to do another thing. Would you just walk off the job in the middle of the job and say I'm worth it.

Speaker 1 (24:08):
And how do you, how do you determine the quality differences? Like what's that process is that as a procurement officer, is it, is it references? How does that work?

Speaker 2 (24:18):
Oh, it was old, old. All of that you've just mentioned could all be items that define quality, say, you know, it could be references from previous work. It could be, you know, they've got to meet certain standards, QS standards, Aeon standards, whatever they've got to be. So that could be quality standards. The definition of quality has to be worked with the internal business, right? I'm not going to say this is the best quality of the worst quality you can also, you know, you look at previous jobs that they've done. You'd go in and go and look and assess the previous jobs. You go and get references from previous jobs, right? All of these are actually quality standards stay. You can, you can make it qualitative and it can be quantitative. It doesn't matter. You can have interviews, you know, when I've done catering tenders, we've actually brought them in. They brought their best work, right. That we assess their best work and say, is that the best work? So, you know, we had a dedicated tender across the UK and it was across the UK, in the us. And they brought samples. They all made samples. They brought samples in and the internal business tried it and said, okay, this is the best one. From what we determined as good food, this is the best one. That's quality. They define quality in that way. Everyone has their own standard.

Speaker 1 (25:38):
Hmm. That makes sense. And how does, so the other one was the regulation. How did, so what's the process on, on figuring that out?

Speaker 2 (25:46):
So regulations quite it's actually, you know, it's kind of the bottom of what we'd call the pillar of needs, because if you can't be the regulation, forget it are. So it's kind of, you know, we need to know what the regulations are so early in the process, we'll probably go out and do, what's called a request for information as part of the process. And that will, one of the questions we'll generally ask is what regulations you must meet them. What must we comply with? Right. And we'll get told those. So by the time we've pulled in five or six different suppliers, you've all told me what those are. I now know what the regulations are. Do my research, speak to the internal lawyers, speak to externalize. Now I know what the regulations must be. So when you send the tender out, you'll say, can you comply with this? Yes or no. If the answer is no, you know, you can't take them. If the answer's yes, move forward. It's like a monopoly. Do not pass, go.

Speaker 1 (26:40):
Got it. And what about the other point? The innovation point? How would you assess the innovation point?

Speaker 2 (26:46):
Innovation is always an interesting one because most people look at that and think, you know, how, how do I define that? What do I say? It depends on what you're looking for in innovation. So if you were looking for a longterm caterer, I'll give you an example there. Then you're looking at how, what are, what is our need in innovation? So for example, you know, we need them to adopt a menu every quarter, we need to change the menu. So that's innovation. How are they going to do that? What's going to happen in terms of following that new menu every quarter, if it's technology. So if I was buying if I was buying mobile phones, this is another simple example I've done for many years. Mobile phones. Yeah. How are we going to move up the scale? My business has engineers who were on the road every day.

Speaker 2 (27:37):
How are we going to move the innovation forward? So that today what we need is a system that will get my engineers to the job tomorrow. What I need is a system that will ensure that the engineers are delivering everything that it needs to be doing throughout the whole job. That's innovation. And then we'll say, okay, over the next three years, this is what we need to do. How are you going to help us get that? And what the suppliers will do is tell us how they're going to meet those innovation targets. Right. Does that help? Yeah,

Speaker 1 (28:09):
Absolutely. So it sounds like if, if if somebody were to be selling to someone with a CA procurement department, if they could address those five things, is it going to be delivered the quality, the price, the innovation, and the legals and the regulations, if they could put together a package and make that as detailed as possible, that would make the procurement job a lot easier.

Speaker 2 (28:35):
Yes. I say my job, my job as the procurement guy is to take the needs from the business. Yep. Express them in a, in a very succinct way to the market and then get that response back the answers where the business wants to be today and in the future. And that's one party, one part of what I do. And so a hundred percent you're right. But it's my job to get that right. It's my job to make that succinct is my job to get that into one document that everyone can understand. And that's right in the process.

Speaker 1 (29:13):
Yeah. And, and understanding that would be your job. It would be useful for a salesperson to try to make your job as easy as possible. But yeah, so that's a useful for our listeners cause everyone's selling something and a lot of them sell to procurement. So if we can make that job as, as easy as possible.

Speaker 2 (29:33):
So that's another market that we, you know, teaching people how the procurement process works. Yep. One of the, one of the key people that needs to know how the procurement process works is salespeople, salespeople, because they're dealing with salespeople that they are looked at, killed with people day in, day out. So when you talk to smaller, medium sizes, it's really interesting because when you talk to small and medium-sized business salespeople, they're always dealing with the larger procurement people because they want those accounts. They want to be able to deal with, you know, if you're in the U S you want to be able to deal with the buyers of Walmart, you want to be able to deal with the buyers of lows. You want to be able to deal with the buyers of Walgreens, you know, and if you want to deal with those people, you need to understand how they work. Guess what, that's what we teach.

Speaker 1 (30:20):
Yeah. Okay. So that sounds like a pretty good problem to solve as well. So I know you guys are early, so what's the goal of the business it's you started let's see here a few months ago. What's what's the overarching goal for for you for you and Craig?

Speaker 2 (30:38):
So short term, we're doing, we're following your process, obviously. So we're bootstrapping the business in short term, say we've targeted ourselves at a million in revenue, 12 months. And then the target we want to go after is between two and two years, ideally two years at 5 million. That's what we want to have. And then we see it as exponential, but it's it, the way we want to do it is it is in those three areas, the three different pillars of the business. So the mentor exchange, the training and the masterminds. We see it in three different ways. And, and we're building the business. We're building the business on the basis of the need. As we've talked about having new materials, you know, we're going out to customers, we've now validated the, the, the theory, the three elements with at least 15 people.

Speaker 2 (31:34):
So I know it says in your materials, it's 10, we've been out to 15 and got it validated that it's actually a need that will be satisfied. And obviously I've spoken to some customers already talking about using us. So it's just kind of closing some of those deals, but also we'll be offering it to the masses. So that's where we start to talk about the materials and the masterminds bag going to be offered to the masses. So we will be offering, coming up, we'll be offering some free sessions with people. So they actually get an understanding of what we're doing. And hopefully we hope we know that it will generate money from the back of that. So that's where we kind of that's our bootstrapping. Like if that makes sense.

Speaker 1 (32:16):
Got it. So right now, if you're listening, if you're a legal between 10 and a hundred million, right. 50 or 150, or you're maybe even a sales department who wants to learn how to sell into the procurement. I, I see that may I know our customers might be interested. You might pick up a few, a sales process, sale members as customers. Where can they find you, Jamie? Where where can they go?

Speaker 2 (32:42):
We're on, we're at

Speaker 1 (32:51):
Pdnhub.Com. Gotcha.

Speaker 2 (32:53):
Says procurement development network.

Speaker 1 (32:56):
Gotcha. And who should they be speaking to Jamie or, or Craig at the moment?

Speaker 2 (33:01):
It's a, both of us where we're here, 24 seven. So just give us a call, send us an email. We're happy. I'm and Craig is Just send us a message. Give us a call. We're happy to give it if it's just to have a chat and you're not sure it was a call, send us an email. No, we're pretty happy to talk to people and you know, Craig, Craig, unfortunately couldn't make it today. You know, but Craig's background, Craig's a huge previous CTO. Who's worked with lots of small companies. He's got a massive wealth of background in terms of being able to develop these things. So, you know, Craig is fantastic person again, to talk to his belt is he's built small companies before as well. So, you know, you know, w we both have a huge wealth of experience, happy to talk to anyone.

Speaker 1 (33:52):
Awesome. Well, Jamie, I appreciate it. It's very, that was very useful. I'm sure people will find that a useful and a, what we'll do is we'll end the call here and yeah, I really do appreciate your time.

Speaker 2 (34:04):
All right. Thanks, Nick. No problem.

Speaker 1 (34:07):
Yes. Well, okay, Jamie. Yeah, that was great. So we'll end the recording at that point. That was good. I just wanted to ask you some quick questions before we we jump off. So as far as always, I'm always wondering what like why did you and Craig sign up for sales process IO just for our internal understanding,

Speaker 2 (34:35):
Craig's the expert? So, you know, I said to Craig, I'm going to, I will tell Nick the truth, whether we like it, like whichever. So Craig, what I've kind of done is Craig was the guy who said sales process to IO. Let's go through that in terms of where it is. So he's the expert who can tell me why sales process, not anything else. And, and, you know, that's where I rely on Craig, because I'm kind of like the, I guess my, my sort of experience is kind of saying, Craig, tell me what I need to do next, next, giving us the process of you need to do this, this, this, this, this. So you tell me what I need to do, Craig, and I'll just get it all done. So Frank knows I'm the, I'm the machine that churns everything out. He just comes to me and says, right, I need the copy for this, or I need this and I just throw it straight at it.

Speaker 2 (35:29):
So I think that's probably my easiest answer for you in terms of where it is in terms of my sales process, I think, you know, from what I've seen and I've been through those materials you know, I think it's, you know, it's the, it's the experience of going from zero to some facts that we need, we need to get at that scale quickly with what we don't want to say. The truth is we're, we're looking at it as something, you know, we would sell this business out. At some point, we're not looking at it as something we want to build up to a hundred, 200, 300 million and it is what it is. We want to get it to a point that we know we can sell it out and then say, thanks very much. It's great. So we want to get up that pillar as fast as we can. We don't want to be set in here in six months, time going, well, we haven't sold anything, we're doing nothing. So I think that's, that was the experience when I looked at sales process. Yep. That's the experience that you've got is building from something to not from nothing to something very quickly.

Speaker 3 (36:33):
So the goal is, and what revenue level is that in your

Speaker 2 (36:38):
Opinion, estimates would be because we do so. The way the materials works is we're looking at subscription basis. The materials masterminds would be different and mentor exchange would be different because the materials is a subscription basis. And on that basis, it would be software as a service rather than write a standard standard business. That would be a consultant kind of consultancy. So software as a service basically was their estimate about seven X Ray tax would be like a sale reasonable South seven accident revenue. Yeah. Seven Exxon revenue barriers. If we go in the consultancy, we're on eBay. So we're kind of like, eh, you know, we're not sure that that it's going to be a lot harder again to do that. So in terms of target, we both talked about what number we would need to walk away is a simple answer. And we both said, if you can get 20 million out of each, then we're done.

Speaker 2 (37:33):
Yep. So we're looking at like 40 million, 40 million sale. Say if it's a 40 million sale, you're going to divide that by eight as like, you know, five, somewhere between five and 10 million on the revenue that we need to hit. And then we looked at how many, if we were selling the materials at about 30, 40 pounds dollars a shops in terms of signups. So we need somewhere between about six and 10,000 subscribers, probably closer to the 10. And once we hit the 10,000, then based on what we've read itself process, if we get to that level, it's kind of like, it will feed itself. Yep. And, and, you know, the target is to sell, to like a Deloitte tour you know, those guys, I used to work for KPMG, those kind of guys who can then take that platform and move it forwards, or a VC or a PA whichever they can take it forward. But that's the, that's the target for us. If it, if it absolutely skyrocketed, we might stay in, but you know, otherwise, you know, we're not, we're not in it to be in it for the rest of our lives.

Speaker 1 (38:45):
So the five to 7 million Mark is probably, that's an interesting point. Like I love hearing the, the actual goals of the customer five or 7 million. And then what's your strategy for making it as much SAS as possible? Like, and how do you make that? Cause like, to get that multiple, you're going to need some recurring some recurring revenue, right? Yes.

Speaker 2 (39:04):
So that's why, that's why I'm saying it's a subscription model on the materials. So the model is that you basically, you sign up. So whether it's masterminds or mentor exchange, they're actually interconnected. So if you go into mentor exchange, you connect with a mentor and you want to work with them. They're going to pull down the materials. So now you, you connected on the metrics. Change from the mastermind is exactly the same. We're going to use the materials in the mastermind teach, but on the materials, people will sign up to use the materials. We had a big discussion or Craig and I about, well, if somebody signs up, I've seen another product where they had the materials and I did it myself. I signed up, cost me a hundred bucks to sign up. I just downloaded all the templates and then said, thanks. So you, you know, I've done it once.

Speaker 2 (39:53):
And that's it say we have, what's what we're building is something called a wizard inside that. So that's the airstrip processes, learning process. That's, you're not going to get, if you walk away. Cause we looked at, you know, I've looked at, you know, I used to buy software. So I know exactly how Microsoft works in terms of being able to do that. So secretive learning that you need, if you don't have access to that material. So you start paying, we cut you off now, whatever you've downloaded, you've downloaded. There's nothing I can do about that. That's going to happen on any product, whatever you are. You know, if you've signed up for Microsoft, it's done when you, when you sign up. But the point being is, is that you don't get any of the updates. So any of the learnings we get from people and the, of the examples that we get from people, and if the updates to those materials, which will happen constantly, and we're going to be doing them monthly. So we're going to have a major monthly, there'll be a monthly update for everything that we do. If you don't, you don't have the subscription, you don't get it. Right.

Speaker 1 (40:57):
Got it. So you got

Speaker 2 (40:59):
That's what keeps it in the subscription model as opposed to anything else. So, Craig and I talked about the masterminds because you kind of look at like a Tony Robbins is kind of like your value masterminds. That's how he does it. Three 65 for 50,000 people. And then they come in and sign it. It's fantastic. But the thing is with him is he has a whole bunch of, he never actually gives you the materials, right? You never get the materials from Mattel. Even if you go to his date with destiny workshop, that costs you eight grand or 10 grand, he still gives you a printed version of you cannot download anything. Yup. There is nothing available. There's no materials. All you can do is listen to his podcast. So, you know, again, what we'll be doing is we'll only be issuing things on, in PDF.

Speaker 2 (41:47):
So yeah. Can somebody converts it back to, you know, convert it? Yeah, they can. But we would really go through some hassle to do that. So everything will be PDF. And then the actual materials that you use online, you could adjust it online when you take it offline, you can't play with it, right? The materials, the wizard is important and, and using the templates within the product is important. And that's the software as a service because the masterminds is probably what we'll deliver as bigger money in the short term. But it's not going to give you the multiple because, you know, look, I can teach anyone. So when you do procurement people tell you that you can be a tea person, which is like breadth and depth. Depth is your knowledge of the subject. Breadth is your knowledge of the process. So I believe that most people are breadth.

Speaker 2 (42:44):
They need to be breadth, depth. You get in time, you can teach any idiot how to buy finance. You can teach any idiot how to buy by construction. It doesn't really matter what it is. The longer you do it, the more depth you get. But knowing the process, you can jump from one to the next, to the next, right? Most people don't want to stay in the same thing for 25 years. Most people want to move. Especially younger people get bored, they want to move. So, you know, you teach them the process, which is what we are going to teach. We're going to do a couple of free sessions as well, where we're going to run like a half, like a half day. Obviously say to people, come, you know, we'll do it once a month. And we'll just do a free session, which will only teach like two or three, two or three things.

Speaker 2 (43:29):
Yep. That's it. Now you've got a taste of what we're actually going to deliver. If you want the materials pay 30 pound a month, 40 bucks a month. If you want the materials, you can have access to all the materials, the whole process, everything. Because the trick neck in this is the trick is, is that most corporates by this process, the process that I'm still selling, most corporates buy it. What they do is they go to the likes of McKinsey. They go to the likes of KPMG, all these big guys. And basically they get them to redesign it and they charge half a million for that process to be redesigned every time. But it's the same. It ain't change it. I've done it for 25 years. It ain't changed. It's the same stuff. There's a few tweaks here and there, but I'm saying I'm going to rip that industry apart because I'm going to offer the, offer it on a subscription basis rather than everyone paying these consultancies half a million to do nothing, to do nothing.

Speaker 2 (44:31):
Right. That's why I think the consultants is, will be after, after a while, because they're not stupid. They know that they can, if this has got enough subscribers from the industry lost, then, then I think they'll go after it. The second part is, which is in the background. And I'm not mentioning this to anyone, but I mentioned to you is exactly the same as Facebook. You know, it's the banner ads. It's the actual database that we'll have. Because if you imagine you just talked about salespeople. Yeah. You're a salesman that sells it to corporate or wherever it is you work for Dow, you work for HP. I will be, I will be the database of all of those it people. Right? So now you're going to want to market banner ads, everything to those it people, you know, if you're down with your age P if you're Apple, whoever you are, I've got those corporate guys on my site, right.

Speaker 2 (45:31):
That there, and I know their it buyers. And I can tell you that those guys spend 200 million a year over a hundred million year. I suspend 1.2 billion a year pounds on it. Hardware, you know, you can now market to me, where else can you market direct? So there's corporate buyers. Yeah. That that's very valuable once it gets going. Yeah, absolutely. Well, that's where I think that's where big the money comes in because once that starts flowing, once you've got the people signed up, then you start, you've got the database. That's awesome. Well, Jamie, I appreciate the time it's been a, it's been great. I I wish you luck. We're in a similar position. We're trying to transition. We'll speak soon.

Speaker 4 (46:14):

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