Speaker 1 (00:01):
All right guys. So we have Mr. Patrick Spielmann here. He is a customer of salesprocess.io for a few years. And he has a pretty interesting story. He's an expert in outbound marketing, outbound prospecting, very, very good at it. He built an agency what pretty fast 0 to or to 1M in 14 months as an outbound prospecting agency decided he was also, he had another, he had other few businesses decided he wanted to focus on software for his outbound agency. And so yeah, that's typically what happens when you become so good at something you start building a software about the thing that you're good at, and then you start making it into a robot. So in this interview or going to learn some of PA Patrick's techniques and a background story and hopefully we'll get a lot of value. The viewers, we get a lot of value out of this. And Patrick's new company is Uptics.io. That's U P T I C S.io. And that is a software. So Patrick, let's kick it over to you. Let's do a quick background story and yeah. And then we'll get into the, the content, the meat and potatoes mean.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Awesome. Sounds good. Well, I will say before we get started, the zero to a million on the agency in 14 months was pretty much because of Nick and what I learned with him. So just in terms of a value, if you're watching this, I'm wondering, you know, does this thing work? It works. So I couldn't have done that without Nick. I'll start out with that. My background, I, I started actually my first business was part of a franchise organization. Sculpture hospitality is the name of it's actually headquartered out of Toronto where Nick is. So we do inventory controls for bars and restaurants. I grew that business to top 10 franchise within four years bought 300 franchisees. I was number one, number two in business growth year over year. COVID didn't help that business at all.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
But I took, I took that success. I started the agency grew really fast with Nick's help. And we had a lot of challenges with executing consistently on the process. So we were doing outbound sales and prospecting for other businesses. So cold email, cold calling, you know, SMS email, you know, the whole nine for B2B sales company, sales focused companies. Yep. And with those challenges, I had had some other software and development and we shifted gears and decided to build up ticks which is a sales automation platform to help consolidate essentially the sales tech stack into, into one platform. And so we're, we're just a couple of days from, from launching that. So super excited. And yeah, that's a little bit about my background.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
And you were using your own software, like, I guess before this was a product you were using your own software and processes to run the agency, right? Yep, yep, yep. Yep. So let's talk about
Speaker 2 (03:15):
The early, very early, the early, not pretty very clunky versions for sure.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
Yeah. That's a common thing. Usually the agencies, they start using their own software. So maybe let's talk about some of the inefficiencies that existed with the current outbound prospecting process that you felt that you solved in your, in your agency because obviously you had to success. So what was, what are some of the, the, the, yeah, the inefficiencies that exist with the outbound prospecting process today?
Speaker 2 (03:45):
Well, you probably know just as well as I do. And, you know, I learned most of this from you, but when you're doing a multi-channel process with LinkedIn, with calling inbound leads, all that kind of stuff, you're using all these different softwares and the more softwares you have, the more challenging it is to ramp up a sales team, a sales rep to be efficient. And so we were having a lot of those challenges you know, we're out, we're using, you know services defined lead lists, then they, you know, clean the lists and, you know, qualify everything, get them into the system, you know, write, copy launch it and then hold our sales team accountable to the top of the funnel activities that they need to do in order to, to achieve the bottom of the funnel results. So that as obviously the, so the business can make money, but of course, so that they have clarity on what, what they can earn especially if they're commission only.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
Yup. And so the process was basically a nightmare. So we're re we're running a separate tool for LinkedIn prospecting, separate tool for, for emailing calling, you know email verification, validations video prospecting and stuff like that. So we, we just started developing you know, kind of things one by one to help consolidate that, that tech stack. But those are the, really the challenges. And, and if you don't have a cohesive process for, for your team, you're, you're not going to get consistent results out of it ultimately. And yeah. So that's, yeah,
Speaker 1 (05:21):
So yeah. Okay. That, let's talk about some of those metrics, because a lot of people like as outbound pro, like we've been doing this for years, we know how, how the outbound prospecting works. We know that we can make it rain if we, if we have a Gmail account and a zoom account. Right. so let's talk about some of these inputs. Like how, what what metrics did you hold accountable for your, your your SDRs or your, your guys that they brought on?
Speaker 2 (05:47):
Yeah, absolutely. So we had, we had goals for how many, you know, LinkedIn connections they needed to meet how many cold emails they sent and how many cold calls, you know, or warm calls that they sent or that they performed, how many videos that you know, they needed to, to create do one-to-one prospecting videos per the sales process IO process. So we're managing KPIs with all that, and maybe even some sub KPIs within that and trying to manage it all within a spreadsheet basically, and or stitching together like Google data studio data of, you know, from zaps that we, you know, integrated with all these softwares and, you know, it's just, it's kind of a nightmare and yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
Well, how many connections a day were you holding your guys accountable to, or like new contacts? Yeah, I mean,
Speaker 2 (06:42):
I want to go over a hundred. Yep. Quality was more important than quantity, for sure. So you want to manage your, you know, your acceptance rates and stuff like that. So, you know, if somebody put out a hundred connections, but only, you know, 15 people accepted, it's 15% connection rate, but if someone, you know, sent out 50 and, and, you know, got, you know, 20 people, it's a 40%. So let's, you know, let's try to, you know, improve and instead of volume let's focus on quality and stuff like that. So it was pretty much, I mean, the goal is depending on the person and we had team goals, but we would, we would also have individual goals, as well as some people's strengths. We're better at video prospecting than the LinkedIn, but, but on average you know, 75 LinkedIn connections a day would probably be the, the average, but 50, you know could be acceptable as well, just depending on how good the person was that, you know, looking into somebody's profile their background and really customizing, you know, a message to, to increase that rate.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
Yeah. That we've done. We've been doing that as well. Like how, for those of you that probably for the more versed outbound prospectors, like there's the old, we'll just go through the processes, like data scraping finding the, the prospect, making sure the data is right. So you got to clean it, so you can actually add the connection. Then you have to craft a message that resonates with that person to get the attention and get the disco call or discovery call, then you got to qualify them and then you pass them on to either the sales person within the company or in your case. It was the, I guess it was the client. Right? Yep. Yep. Yep. So what type of person have you found to be best at those steps? Or were there different types of people? Because I have some we've been doing this. I'd love to hear what you found
Speaker 2 (08:43):
The best type of person.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
Yeah. Maybe the best type of person for research and then the best type of person for the actual prospecting itself.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
Yeah. I mean, they are kind of different tasks. I mean, one's very, it's very kind of tedious. Yeah. Right. I mean, some people use virtual assistants to do the go out and find the data and the information and then plug that into a system. So then from there you can leverage a customized campaign but use, use it with automation. Yep. I didn't find the perfect formula to be honest on, on who the best person is, but somebody, somebody that pays attention to detail and it's very, it's actually very hard to find finding that one person that can, you know, follow the step by step, by step by step. But if you can stitch all those steps together, it's very potent it's. But I'd be lying if I said I found the perfect person to, to do it. Somebody that's really goal oriented, I'd say, and, you know, can, can look at the goal for the day. They can break things down, you know, not just like if you have a monthly or quarterly goal or something like that, but you know, if it's broken down by the day and they're focused just like one day at a time, you know, let's, let's hit our KPIs for the day. And I know if I do my job today that you know, over the course of the week, a month, a quarter, you know, things are gonna result in good things. So
Speaker 1 (10:16):
Competitive environment when you were running your team, like, did you have bonuses? Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2 (10:23):
Yeah, yeah. We, we, we would do, we'd do, do daily bonuses. We'd do weekly monthly we'd, we'd have spiffs bonuses, you know, awards, rewards, recognition that kind of stuff. Just keep people motivated because it's, it can be a grind. You know, and part of with, you know, kind of the software offering, the direction I wanted to go is, is to reduce some of that grind. Yup. So you can focus more time on selling, but there's still some necessary steps in there. Even if I don't know if we'll ever get to like a robot ever being able to do it all, you're always gonna need a person. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
Yeah. Yeah. I agree. Like I've been seeing, I like the personalization versus the like completely automated. I find like the more personalized, obviously the better yeah. Like with our SDR team where we go really personalized, they have to be clever. Sometimes I have to be funny to get the appointment. Right. And that's a little bit of a different skill set than just like mining data and like cleaning it and stuff like that. Right.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
For sure. Yeah. Yeah. That's a good, yeah. In terms of you know, the type of person they are having like a sense of humor or figuring out a way to, to stand out with somebody is super important. But yeah. I mean, we we'd have a bell in the office, you know, in, during the bell in time and, you know, someone do something good, we'd have the spiffs lunches and all that kind of stuff to help, you know, push people along and you know, make them feel like, you know, what they're doing is exciting and stuff like that. And it is, it is fast paced and exciting. So yeah, a lot of action for sure. We weren't remote. So we actually had an office and so that office environment that ringing the bell and people high five in and you know, getting pumped up and stuff like that, that that's a fun atmosphere for sure.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
Keeping the energy I've guessed the inputs out. Yeah. So let's yeah, let's talk about how Uptics kind of works. Like what's the, what does the process look like for our customer? How is it in what way does it save them time and money? Yeah. And who's the best type of customer for a forever.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
Yeah. how it works. I mean, it is, you know, it's in the sales automation space. We're focused on multi-channel right now as it sits. It's got, you know, your email SMS email validation, task management, task automation, it's a lightweight CRM, of course you can manage your deal pipelines. So you know, it's got that stuff, but it's more focused on, on the automated sequential processing side of things. So either scheduling a manual task or it'll perform an automated task, however you want to set up the system you know, we'll, I mean, it can automate an entire list of leads. You can segment your lists, however you want. So you can have, you know specific sequences built for any type of lead and whatever process you want. So you know, if you need to schedule a task for a manual task for your sales rep to perform, it'll get scheduled for them, you know, and then it'll track all the KPIs.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
It can automate if there's a manual task that needs to get done before an automated task happens. Once that manual task is done, then it'll, you know, immediately start processing the automated tasks. So but email, SMS and tasks are the big one right now, in terms of all right, in addition to just general lead list management and, you know, kind of your soft CRM but in the future, we're we're, we're already working on a I'm calling it a semi-automated LinkedIn tool because there's a lot of automated ones and per you know, what we were talking about before, like the more personalized, the better experience you're going to have. So we're going to be focused on making it easier for somebody to, to perform their LinkedIn sales tasks but not completely automated so that you don't lose that personal touch because I just checked my invitation requests or requests last week.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
And I had like 250 LinkedIn invitations to my inbox, and I can go through and look through the messages and like automated, automated, automated, automated, but the people that point out to me about just something that might be relevant to what I'm actually working on, like, Oh, I see Uptics is doing great things you do. Cause my website's not even up yet. It's like, I don't, I don't quite know how you, how you'd know that. So, you know, just that little bit of personalization you know, it goes, it goes a long way. So that's in terms of the LinkedIn side of things the we're going to kind of augment the manual process with, with technology versus fully automate. Yeah. So that's a little bit, I don't want to reveal everything. I've got a whole laundry list of, of strategy and softwares that will be part of this will be
Speaker 1 (15:38):
Painted. Like I know they, I know that problem cause we have a big SDR team and we, you know, we send thousands of contacts a day and we're always looking for ways to just improve the efficiency of it because once, like it's not like paid advertising, it's, it's, you're changing calories right. For demos. And so if you, if you can do it efficiently, it's really profitable
Speaker 2 (16:03):
For sure. Yeah. I like that exchanging calories for for demos.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
Yeah, you do. Right. Instead of advertising, you're exchanging dollars for demos with with this stuff. It's it's calories for demos. And so who would be the perfect customer for for Uptics? Like, is it, are the agencies to a specific tip, a ticket price? Who's the best
Speaker 2 (16:24):
Yeah. Agencies are definitely one of them. And that's where we've gotten a lot of interest because especially, you know, sales agencies do not want prospecting. Like we did at lead engine, of course, know the pains of trying to execute on a multichannel approach. So the more consolidated the better as it sits right now, like we're not totally optimized for agencies just with like the login and experience and stuff. But SAS companies, for sure you know, smaller sales teams, I would say right now, probably 10, 10, and under you probably get away with more 50 and under, it's not really I guess it's not really a number thing it's just more or less, you know, the bigger companies, you know, might be, might also have Salesforce and, you know, all that kind of stuff. But I would definitely say, you know, under 50 SAS companies, definitely there's some cool things we're going to be doing with the SAS, if you have inbound leads. But your sales driven it'll really help automate that process as well. So, you know, it has inbound leads, but we are focused of course, on, on B2B, inside sales teams remote selling we don't have a mobile app at this point. So outside sales teams don't really make a whole lot of sense. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
Cool. And let's maybe let's talk about the transition from agency to software. What was I, a lot of guys are doing that. Why, why did you decide to do that? What, what was the thought process?
Speaker 2 (18:00):
Why that's a good question. Why maybe I didn't think about it enough, but no it was kind of easy for me at the time I was actually, I had a team developing some other software. Yep. And at the time I felt like this opportunity was more relevant and longer term. It's more of my kind of passion and wheelhouse because it's sales driven, which the other software was operational kind of backend type software. But the transition was, was fairly easy for me, cause we had already developed software. So from there we just had, I mean we wireframe designed started development, but with, with software courses challenging because there's in what we've built. It, we've tried to build something that's kind of simple, but it's not really simple because there's so many, I mean, you've got email, you've got SMS calling power dialing sequential automation, you know, list management automation, like just, there's a lot of complexity.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
So at surface it, it seems simple. But once you start getting into it, it and I'm sure your audience can, can relate with this because a lot of them are SAS driven and stuff like that. But once you start peeling back the onion, you start uncovering all the little tiny Minuit things that, that it takes to build, you know, a platform like this. So you know, it's, it's been a long road, but but we're, we're at the start of the finish line, I guess the you know, the the early stage.
Speaker 1 (19:42):
Yeah. Well, I guess maybe it was it for a better egg, like exit potential. Yeah, that was like the main driver. That's a common theme with our customer base. Yeah,
Speaker 2 (19:51):
For sure. Exit potential. So my other two businesses were service oriented and if you're really good and you've got a really profitable service-based business, you know, you can, you can maybe get a 1.5 multiple on revenue. But most people are getting a one X. Yep. And depending on your margin you know, that probably translates into about like a three X on, on your net. Yeah. So you know, I'm sitting there going like, you know, I, I built this great little service-based business, but at the end of the day you know, it wasn't gonna help me retire. I mean it would help me, but not, not really leaving that lasting legacy that I'd want to leave my, my daughters and stuff like that. So and I really liked building things and so softwares, although I'm not technical, I really love just the, I guess maybe it's the chase of building things and the, the exit potential of courses is way bigger with software.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
I mean, you're looking at, in some cases, I mean, you look at some companies they're getting a hundred X multiple on on revenue, which is, which is crazy. So, I mean, but to translate that, I mean, even if I build a nice little boutique software business and I got a three X multiple, you know, that's three X bigger than what I could have sold, you know, the other, the other two companies and focus on one thing instead of, you know, the three things that I was trying to focus on at the same time. So exit was, was definitely for sure part of the equation, but I like the chase and I like building new stuff. And so that, that was a big part of it as well.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
Yeah. I, I can, I can relate to that for sure. Sometimes I get too far into the building and then I, yeah, I can definitely relate. So maybe let's talk about the journey too, like as a non, I guess a non-technical like not a coder, right? Yeah. How did, like, how did you, what process did you use to to build a software? Like what, what what were the steps and what were some of the mistakes that one could avoid if, if you made any like, like there's a lot of non-technical founders that are in agencies or in consultants as they want to do that.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
Yeah. So I would say if you're building software and you're not technical and you don't make a mistake each you'd probably go buy a Powerball ticket as well. Because he got just going to chance when the Powerball is not making a mistake, if you're not technical and building a software. So I started on my outsourced to a software development company and I worked with them for a couple of years actually predating when we started sort of building Uptics. And if you're not technical, it's a good, it's a good route to go to get started. I'll say that there are definitely some red flags in some, in some things you want to be cautious of, especially if you're paying by the hour. Right. So I had a whole team within this software development company, but there's some practices in that space and I, I don't want to point fingers or anything necessarily, but I'll say there's a lot of shady practices in that business.
Speaker 2 (23:10):
It's good. If you're not technical to get started, you can get you know, there's a certain process you want to go through though, that I learned the hard way. You definitely want to prototype wireframe design and then start development. You don't want to just go in, hire somebody and then show them like a little mock up and have them start developing. That's a recipe for disaster, for sure. So, you know, pick up a system, I mean, actually like XD Adobe XD, Figma are pretty easy tools. If you're not technical to learn, if you're really, really not technical, you know, I, I started wireframing with system called balsamic. Oh yeah, yeah. And then I had a designer, but I've kind of became the designer now where I, instead of using balsamic, I use XD. And so I actually do a lot of my designs and most of the product work, no.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
But definitely make sure do your wire framing and prototyping and design work first, before you start with development, you're outsourcing, you got to think about, there's an extra layer of friction in there in the company that they're working for. They're working on your project, but they're working for the other company as well. And so there's, there's a layer of, I would call care that I don't want to say it gets completely eliminated because you know, the people building your software, like they're human too. And so like, you know, they, they care to a certain level, but I'm just saying that there can be a level of care that gets removed. And when you're trying to build a software and you've got all these little ins and outs, it can be extremely challenging when you remove that, that layer. So over the course of time, what we ended up doing is I, my lead developer actually at the software development company became our technical co-founder.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
So he actually left that company. And we started hiring internally. So we have we have our own dev team in house. We're all remote, but we've transitioned it in house. And that being said, we, we are, we, we still use freelancers. We still use some software you know, some dev shops here and there. Cause it's, sometimes it's hard to find new resources, hire new people in house and maybe you just need a resource for a project and it doesn't make sense to hire on a full resource. So we have, we have kind of a combination of, of in-house and outsource right now. Yup. So, yeah. And at what point does it make sense to bring it in house? Just to get the prototype out for somebody who's not not as tactical. Yeah. I would make the trip before you go live.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
I would make the transition to, to bring somebody in house. I know that's hard from a funding perspective, especially if you're bootstrapped. It's not everyone can do it. So, but before you go live, I would probably try to have somebody in house that can help you, you know, manage AWS or Microsoft or Google, whoever using for cloud services and stuff at least and, and, and have control over your code. I guess I'll, I'll put that before all of us have control of your code. I, I went a long time without even having an access to like Bitbucket for all of our code. And I didn't know what I didn't know. Yeah. Yeah. So here I, you know, I'd spent, I'll say hundreds of thousands of dollars in software development and and I didn't, I didn't even have access to it. So I got access to it.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
Of course it wasn't a problem. But I definitely made sure that's that's from day one. And from, in terms of launching, I would definitely have, you know, if you're not technical, try to find some technical person that maybe could become a technical co-founder for you in how somebody that is going to have the level of, I just call it care and wellbeing for, for the business for you, making sure, you know, things are, are running right. Once you launch like somebody that is fine with, you know, if things broke in the middle of the night, like you've got customers, you've got a service, you've got a product that needs to work. So if somebody that's, you know, not just, you know, the nine to five type that that could you know, help, you know, with that, that product. So,
Speaker 1 (27:46):
Yep. No, that's really useful because I know sometimes if you're a really good salesperson, you are drawn to the product. Yeah. That's where I ended up too. Yeah, so it's, it's easy to get customers, but then actually building is it, it can be a challenge. Yep. And yeah,
Speaker 2 (28:05):
Yeah. Big time for sure.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
And then for the engineers on the other side of the, on the other side, the developers you can build, but they can't really sell it. So it's good to it's probably harder to learn coding than it is to learn. So yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
Yeah. One of my co-founders like a year ago he was like, ah, I should just learn how to code. And he's the type that could like, do really good at coding, but, but he didn't start doing it. And then a year later we're like, dang it, you really should have learned how to code because like, you know, I I've he was actually good at sales as well. And you know, I'm fairly good at it and marketing and stuff. Like we have that covered, but as like the engineering side but I would say learning how to sell is a lot easier than coding for sure.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
Speaker 2 (30:07):
We're literally just in the process of getting launched within a couple of days or I guess kind of re it's sort of a relaunch for us. We didn't get an opportunity to truly launch the first time just with some, you know, it's a backend stuff with integration partners and stuff, but we're launching here in the next few days and you know, just continuing to improve and, and stuff like that. The, our biggest focus when, when we did a soft launch kind of a private, private launch and stuff like that was what we learned as to just make the onboarding experience a lot easier. So we've built an entire front end model module for somebody to get their account set up within, within minutes. And we've got some incentives or giving away some free, free credits, free bonus, couple of free bonuses and stuff like that.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
You know, make it a little bit more exciting. But that onboarding experience with software is super, super important. And so anyone, I guess, in, in your audience that, you know, is building software, thinking about building it. The tool is very important of course, but I can tell you, I, we built a tool initially that, that worked it, it did what it said it would do, but when you start getting users you got to start thinking about when they pick up your software, how, how easy it is for them to pick up and actually use users are, are sort of finicky. They'll, they'll jump if it's not like super easy and, and easy to pick up. So that's where we're at right now. We built that, that onboarding experience make it easy. We're launching relaunching, I guess, here again. And we'll see what happens from there where we're, we've got some interested investors and, and stuff. I have to decide if I want to take on some capital or not. What'd you think of just with COVID and how it kind of impacted my life will probably probably raise some, some capital. The goal was then to Q2, so have some follow-ups with some investors and and to Q2 which is coming up quick, it's only two months away. So
Speaker 1 (32:35):
And this is in these local investors are what type of what type of investors, if they're interested, where should they, or what type of investor would be a good investor for you?
Speaker 2 (32:44):
Yeah, obviously early stage B2B SAS. If if, if it's an investor listening to this or watching this if sales, automation is kind of your jam and you're trying, I know it's, it's sort of that up and coming, you know, Nisha or whatever within the subset of, of you know, CRM or sales automation and stuff like that. So that's definitely somebody that that would be a good, good contact. We've met, I've met with some good size investors interested in, I don't want, I don't want to name drop necessarily, but it's a, some top five types. So death capital is, is with software is definitely a necessary if, depending on where you want to take it. So I wasn't going to take it originally. And then, and then the COVID thing happened, so
Speaker 1 (33:42):
Yeah. Well, you were bootstrap, you were crushing bootstrap, like you're yeah. Gotcha. I think you were one of the fastest guys to get to a million dollars and a million dollars in run rate like you did in four months, just cause you had that just insane work ethic, obviously you're super bright guy and yeah, you had an offer that was working
Speaker 2 (34:02):
For sure. The offer was working really well. The harder part was the execution. The thing with that was we were pretty high ticket. Whereas with software, you know, we've got anywhere from free to a hundred and something dollars a month is where we'll, we'll start at. And so it takes a little time, you know, to start, you know, instead of you know, a $5,000 a month retainer you know, you're looking at free to a hundred for, you know, a hundred something per user. You know, you can, when you bootstrap a service-based business, it's easier to, to go really high ticket really high ticket in the SAS space. Usually you're focused on enterprise and enterprise or sprit is pretty hard. So yeah, I, if I can continue to bootstrap it, I'm going to, I'm going to, it's just going to be we'll, we'll see what happens. I know I can get users and get people to sign up and stuff. It's just the conversion is the hardest part in the software space. So anyone that's looking at building kind of software in your, in your space you know, really focused on that, that conversion and activating a customer. That's, that's really the focus.
Speaker 1 (35:20):
Cool. Well, Patrick, I think it's been really valuable hearing your story and I think we got we yeah, we, we have some nuggets for for folks. There's definitely people who are similar, similar to you that that could can benefit. So where can they find Uptics.io or Patrick, do you want to give your email address if they have a direct for sure they want to hit you up directly?
Speaker 2 (35:45):
Yeah. So our website is Uptics.io. We're on all social media channels channels as well. My direct email is firstname.lastname@example.org. That's my direct line. So I give you my phone number too, but email's a little better, so yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:08):
Sounds good. Okay. Well I appreciate it, Patrick. And yeah, we'll speak soon.
Speaker 2 (36:13):
Awesome. Thanks Nick. Appreciate it. No problem.